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Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: April 2, 2008 10:03PM

My partner and I are finishing the last touches on software that allows US residents to legally participate in online gambling. Doesn't matter what it is, sports betting, card games, slots. The software works on everything and keeps casinos from violating US laws. Additionally, it integrates directly into whatever software they are currently running. It should be finished in a month.
What would be the best way to distribute and license this software to online casinos? We don't want to start our own and have to find clients and do marketing. Rather offer casinos a legal way to enter the US market. Any suggestions?

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: AndySS2 (201.200.64.---)
Date: April 3, 2008 01:56AM

It all depends on what it is and there are channels for it and ways of getting it to market.
However, with the information you have provided, not easy to make suggestions as how to market the product.
If it's a point based product, then you must be specific about revenue sources revenue split etc. or the product will have little or no acceptance ratio.
My best suggestion, as is, is to look for software providers and partner with them, as they may be more open do do an equity deal with you if the product is good.

Andreas




Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: April 3, 2008 06:00PM

Thanks Andreas.

No, it isn't a point based system. It allows for wagering by US residents with actual funds and it doesn't try to do the "its not real money" or the "you have 1,000,000 points which equals $20". A person would pay $20 to play and they would get $20 worth of wagering. If they win $40, then they get $40. No gimmicks. No fees. Actaul people wagering actual money.

I would say more but we're patent pending and as you know that isn't much protection especially if we don't have international patents yet.

Would you say going to software companies would be a better strategy then going to the online casinos and pairing our services and software with them directly? If we did that, we would be fully liable for any violation of US law and the online casino would have 0% liability because our software and service would manage all transactions from creating accounts to placing bets. The casino could comfortably advertise that they are using the only legal software allowing wagers to be placed by US residents, well at least until the government changes their laws...again:-(

Please let me know what you think. And i appreciate your response.

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: AndySS2 (201.200.64.---)
Date: April 3, 2008 06:59PM

Well, I hope you have a lawyer taking a good look at it. The US law is so unclear that it gives prosecutors and judges a tremendous leeway of making their own determinations.

I would say that the best way is looking for some distribution partners, be it software providers or other types. They have already sales lines up and direct connection with prospective licensees. It will be considerably easier that way, I would assume.

If the concept is legal, then your responsibility shouldn't be an issue either. With clear sales channels, the acceptance would also rise considerably, as getting even the ear of many operators/owners with volume is not an easy task.

If you have private questions, of the board, you can always email me.





Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: April 4, 2008 02:37PM

Once again thank you. Yes, we have had attorneys review the laws and our sofware diligently. Out of the two law firms, neither of them see an issue with our software violating any state or federal laws when allowing US players to wager.

Additionally we are having a former online gambling lobbyist in the states place us with a high-end gaming lawyer who is suppose to review the completed project in a few weeks for the last smell test. As it stands, we seem to be within the US laws and have judgements on our side from decisions handed down by US courts already.

What would be your suggestion to locate distribution partners? What would they need to see in order to work with us? Legal opinion letters from attorneys sighting all the federal and local laws and stating we are in compliance with them?

I have had a few emails offline about using our services with various websites currently running who wish to use our services. Would you say push along those channels and distribute to them allowing word of mouth to spread the software and service or create a percentage split with a company that already has ties throughout the industry. Who would have that besides software companies?

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: AndySS2 (201.200.64.---)
Date: April 4, 2008 09:41PM

Try to contact the software houses, those that license gambling software. You can find lists of them on places like Casino City etc.
They are the ones that can get it out easier. Selling a concept direly to opertaors are a much though sell imho. To make any sales effort, you must provide a lot more information than you have here. Just stating it's a great thiing won't build up a whole lot of confidence. To make the sales, then show how money is made from the product, that is what all sales boils down to: profits, money.

Websites/operators directly - if you can handle a large contact load and lots of contacts that doesn't pan out, then try that way. Conversion ratio from contact to sales will be quite low, even with a very nice product.


Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: April 5, 2008 03:17PM

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Vickey (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: April 6, 2008 12:51PM

Hi I'd like t talk to you regarding your SoftWare also do you or have you Written poker Software?

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: April 7, 2008 05:21PM

Feel free to write me at qismallc@yahoo.com. My name is Jo. Also, I'm assuming that your asking if the software we developed works with poker sites. The answer is yes. The software allows poker sites to accept wagers from US players.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: VinceInVail (76.25.39.---)
Date: April 8, 2008 03:48PM

Hi Jo,

You have peaked my interest. We have been in this industry since 1997 and have many contacts when it comes to developers and more importantly for you Operators. If your software can legally do what you say it can, perhaps we can entertain being a Master Reseller for your company. There are many questions that initially come to mind. I do not mean to be negative toward your product but rather the devil's advocate in this scenario. Usually the law follows the MONEY. Who receives it and by what means was it attained? The UIGEA makes it a crime to fund online gaming operations by financial institutions. Wondering how you plan to get around that one LEGALLY. The law also refers to aiding and abetting that anyone assisting a US citizen to make a online wager is breaking the US law. "Moreover, the definition of aiding and abetting set out in the relevant criminal statute is quite broad: It sweeps in anyone who "aids, abets, counsels, commands, [or] induces" a criminal act, or "procures its commission"; and anyone who "willfully causes" an act that, if he had done it directly, would count as a federal crime. And it states that such persons are punishable as if they were the perpetrators themselves."

These articles shed much light on the topics of LEGAL>>>>> You already may be well versed on these points. If so, I apologize for being redundant.

[www.gaminglawmasters.com]

[gamblingads.com]

[writ.lp.findlaw.com]

[www.firstamendment.com]



Yes, things are pretty vague or ambiguous with the laws and some are very clear, but how much risk and exposure are you willing to take? Most attorneys do not have a clue about the gaming laws as it is a specialized field. Perhaps you should consult with the likes of an expert like Nelson Rose in California.

Although the bettor making an actual bet online is not an illegal act except in 8-11 US states, operating a business of receiving or assisting in making these types of bets are (based on the Wire Act of 1961). Also if you plan to be the processor and the operators need to collect from you, you better be pretty convincing that their money is safe. There are too many horror stories of processors disappearing with funds.

Where will your operation be located?

Please let me know your thoughts and or email me back with your answers.

If you have the real deal..... I think we can help you.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: April 8, 2008 11:29PM

Hi VinceinVail,

I appreciate your interest and your questions and comments are very good. I'm more than happy to go over some of the questions your posed. Devil's advocate is my favorite game. Besides, it is always a pleasure to converse with someone that actually knows the laws! It reconfirms what we have done or it lets us know we need to go back to the drawing board.

First, the UIGEA does follow the money. We are not making software that hides the transfer of money from one location to another in an effort to circumvent the law. A prime example of this NOT working is the indictment of Betonsports PLC. In that indictment, there were 6 acts of racketeering from Betonsports funneling people's bets through alias bank accounts such as "Rob Jones" in Ecuador. These bank accounts were fronts for Betonsports. However, our software doesn't simply create an illegal work-around of federal laws. It actually provides a legal remedy to the issue of US players not being allowed to wager. As you can imagine, I can't say more on how it does this until the software is ready for market.

Second, you addressed aiding and abetting. A person or company can only be considered aiding and abetting another IF the act is unlawful. You wrote above, it only applies to a “criminal act”. Our software and service is not unlawful by any standards of US law, whether it is the UIGEA, the Wire Act, the Travel Act, Illegal Gambling Business Act or any other federal laws. What you might not be aware of is that in addition to federal laws, every state has additional laws regulating the placing of wagers which many times go above and beyond the federal laws. Try reviewing the Penal Codes for Delaware or Washington State regarding gambling. They put the federal laws to shame. Our software and service is in compliance with every state's law as well.

We are even considering taking another step in protecting the online operators and instead of providing software; provide a service using our software which will hold us fully liable for any violation of US law and leave online operators in the clear (even by definition of aiding and abetting). The addition of an indemnity clause would release any casino of financial responsibility and place the entire financial burden upon us. Just an idea.

In regards to lawyers knowing the gaming law, you are completely right. They don't. I am more versed in the various laws than most attorneys. We have our legal opinion letter as well as went a step further; we contacted the State Attorney's office for every state, the DOJ and the FBI regarding our software and services. Believe me, it was a pain to get a response from anyone. We have done extensive due diligence regarding legality of the software and if it truly provides a lawful way for US players to wager while online.

We have a very simple concept. Don’t do anything that is illegal. It isn’t worth it.

Regarding be the processor for online casinos, we have no plans of doing that. We don’t want to be responsible for payouts or anything else along those lines. We simply want to provide the software or service and allow online casinos to have access to US players. I doubt that any casinos would want some new company doing all their processing and holding their money anyway. I know I wouldn’t if I was one. As for our operations, we are located in California. If we only provide the software, we will stay here. If we provide a service, we will move to a more reasonable (financially) location to operate.

If you are able to help as a Master Reseller, we would be very interested in using your services. It makes more sense to us to have greater market penetration via a third party then slower penetration without. If you have any more questions or advice, please email me. What have you been doing in the industry since 1997?

Regards,

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: VinceInVail (76.25.39.---)
Date: April 9, 2008 12:26AM

Hi Jo,

Thank you for your informed and detailed reply. To be honest... I was not expecting such a knowledgeable person to be conversing with. Kudos! Starting in Santa Monica, CA in 1997 we were a licensee of StarNet offering Casino and SB. Today we are still involved with several licensed gaming operations, however, have become more of a one stop shop for online gaming solutions and reseller of gaming software and licensing. "If we do not offer it.. you do not need it." =:-)

Your product sounds exciting and I cannot wait to find out more. Till now we have observed that it does not really matter what anybody else thinks or how they interpret the laws. If the FBI and DOJ want to call something illegal, they do so. The FBI had a banner on their website saying that it is illegal to place wagers online. We both know that that is not what the law says. Jay Todd from APCW pulled them on the carpet for this to no avail.And anybody whatsoever involved with that product, business, service or activity deemed by them to be illegal will be deemed to have committed a crime as well.(Even running an AD or providing a link) Just the way it seems to be.

It sounds as though you have really done your homework.

If this pans out for you the way that you anticipate, we would be very interested in working with you to help get your product into the industry. We can discuss this now or later. It is up to you. I will be happy to send you my telephone number if you like.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 04/09/08 12:40AM by VinceInVail.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: April 9, 2008 04:39PM

Hey VinceInVail

Please by all means, send your information to qismallc -AT-yahoo-DOT-com. I'm more than happy to speak with you at any time. The product will not be ready for release for 60 to 90 days. But I'm more than happy to put things in motion if we can both mutually benefit. And please send me your website. I'd love to review it.

As for the DOJ and FBI, you are spot on. I'm familiar with the FBI website (for those reading this and haven't seen it, it is fbi.gov/page2/june07/gambling060607.htm). The biggest reason why the DOJ and FBI can get away with making most things illegal is because people do not understand the "substance over form" interpretation of the law and the wording of laws are usually very open in order to include various meanings. A good example is the term "wire communication facility" used in the Wire Act. Most people would think it relates only to hard lines such as phones, internet or faxes. However that is wrong, it is any common carrier regulated by the FCC, which includes CB, radio waves, cell phones and anything else you can possibly imagine like microwaves. The only thing it doesn't include is smoke signals but even that could be included because smoke signals could be considered an old communication market, which would place it under FCC regulations.

The only way to deal with the Feds and the DOJ is by creating a product that clearly does not violate any laws. Find case laws in various jurisdictions that prove that your product does not violate any laws. Keep a nice folder marked "FEDS" and put all your documentation together so when they come knocking (and they always do when you have found a loop-hole in the law), you can provide all the information they need and show them exactly why the product doesn't violate any laws.

Once again, thank you for your thoughts and I look forward to speaking more in depth regarding our software. I'd particularly like to discuss with you the best options for release and compensation by operators in which they have the least amount of exposure but can maximize profits whether royalty splits based on EV standards for various games, licensing fees or no fees but an upfront cost for customizing the service to their website.

Regards,

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Sandy (---.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
Date: April 17, 2008 12:44PM

If this software allows people to use American credit cards to make deposits into their internet casino accounts, please let me know when it's ready.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: April 23, 2008 08:31PM

It most certainly does. It should be ready for market in the next 60 to 90 days.

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: May 19, 2008 10:43PM

Everyone,

I have received tons of emails on using our service and other legal questions regarding starting an online casino and staying in compliance with US laws. If you have questions, feel free to write me at qismallc at yahoo dot com and I will be happy to answer any questions I can. I am not a lawyer so you will need to take what I say and run it past one to be safe (or at least that is what I would do). I have spent large amounts of money with lawyers in order to create what we have. I am happy to help in anyway besides giving information on how our business process works. There are other ways to legally accept some US wagers which I'm more than happy to help people do now.

Our software will not be ready for market for another 45 days (roughly) as soon as it is, anyone who wants to test the demo or utilize the service will be notified if they have contacted us prior. If you are interested in using the service, buying the rights to the software or testing it, please contact me at the above email.

Thanks

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: July 16, 2008 02:47PM

Everyone:

Its 80% complete everyone! The software that legalizes game play by US residents is now 80% completed. We are finishing the actual software within 2 weeks and we began the website content. Website should be completed at the same time and the demo will be rolled out for everyone to view and try our system. Quick, easy and user friendly. I believe we are demoing our system on some major casino websites also. Some of the top ones in sports betting, casino games and poker rooms. I will post the website once it is all completed. Shouldn't be longer than 2 to 3 weeks.

Instead of selling software we decided to provide a service to casinos at no cost to them. To date, we are wondering the best way to do that. If anyone has any suggestions please let us know. I'm happy to talk about it on the forum or off the forum. We feel that a paypal type of set up would be best where US players make deposits to your account with us and we provide legalized gaming strictly for those people. Then casino owners can debit their account for funds just like with paypal. any other suggestions? Any input would help. Don't want to reinvent the wheel here.

Regards,

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: William (---.dia.static.qwest.net)
Date: July 17, 2008 06:23PM

Please send info

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Jo (---.area1.spcsdns.net)
Date: July 20, 2008 03:34PM

Hi William,

What information would you like? And where should I send it?

Regards,

Jo

Re: Software that legalizes online gambling
Posted by: Headhunter (---.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
Date: January 5, 2009 05:01PM

Hi Jo,

Just wondering if that last 20% of the system/software has been completed, and how/where it's possible to get more information.

Thanks,

HH

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